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C-K University committee moving forward
A committee is being formed to look into the possibility of a Technical University for Chatham-Kent.
Chatham Counc. Doug Sulman entered a successful notice of motion to have the committee formed. He said the committee would include no more than six members of Council and would look into the feasibility of having a post-secondary institution focused more on high-tech sectors.
Sulman said the success of having two other post-secondary institutions in Chatham-Kent, Ridgetown College and St. Clair College, led him to enter the motion. He said it should be a way to create jobs, both at the school and spin-off employment across the community.
The committee is set to work closely with the Economic Development Advisory Committee, and will look to include stakeholders from across Chatham-Kent, including school board officials and business representatives as well.
Bill Smith
January 31, 2012 at 4:00 pm
Really quite silly – we all know the government is constrained by finances, and the last thing they are going to do is fund another University in any form. So to go spin your wheels spending more local tax payers’ dollars drafting paper work, and more meetings after meetings is extremely counter productive. Economic Development should be chasing businesses, not trying to create the most highly educated – unemployed workforce in Canada. Not sure if this was the same councilor that was able to shave off a couple of hundred thousand by deferring a loan payment.
Caress Lee
February 1, 2012 at 8:29 pm
I commend Sulman for going forward with this movement. Economic Development would not need to try as hard to ‘chase’ businesses if a University was built. Universities mean a rise in population, which leads to a rise in local businesses moving to and around the area. A large problem today in Chatham-Kent is the inability to retain it’s youth. In order to obtain a university education, they must move to London, Windsor, Kitchener-Waterloo, Toronto, Ottawa, etc. Once there – they involve themselves in volunteer opportunities, internships, part-time jobs; connections are made and they consider themselves to be connected and engaged within their new community. Thus, we lose a LARGE percent of our eager, intelligent young people year after year to neighbouring cities that will provide them with the means to obtain a university degree. I am very excited to see this committee moving forward and believe very much that having a University would turn Chatham-Kent into the successful, leading, engaged community that it has the potential to be.
bIll smith
February 2, 2012 at 3:05 am
Caress so to fund the Univeristy will be a around $100mm or so just curious where the money comes from, and before you say students…there are no break even Universities in Canada. Also just for interest sakes why would a small business come to Chatham, just because a University is here? Please tell me why…CK does have potential I agree on that…
Lydia Tanner
February 2, 2012 at 10:48 am
Funny thing Bill. I spoke to a lady on the weekend that was looking at CK to open a brand new small business. She attended a meeting last Thursday of about 50 local property owners. She said out of the entire group there were about 7-8 positive people, and the rest of the mostly business people, in her words, “were horribly negative and rude”. She is now looking at space in London. Sometimes we rightfully are hard on Economic development, it’s been a bumpy few years. But our own negativity is turning away jobs in CK.
A new university or new hospital can only be good news for CK. Sometimes an open mind, and yes the occasional open wallet goes a long way.
Chris Lozon
February 2, 2012 at 3:56 am
Universities are bound by the same economics of supply and demand as any other service business. So the first question to be asked by any committee is whether there is currently unserviced demand for bachelor degree programs in Ontario ? If so, where are the gaps that can be filled? If not, then excess supply will only serve to dilute profitability while compromising the quality of education being delivered.
Rob
February 2, 2012 at 4:25 am
You just said that universities are bound by the same economics of supply and demand of any business… yet you say offering a competing product only dilutes profits and compromises quality.
I think that’s backwards. I’d hate to see what the quality of ANY service business would be if there were no competition… and making the right offer can bring profits at a premium.
I also don’t believe it has to come down to a simple equation of what is being unserviced… because if the same economics apply to schools as any other business, then wouldn’t marketing a great package increase demand, and generate more profits.
Chris Lozon
February 2, 2012 at 4:38 am
Rob, one needs to differentiate between competitive balance in an expanding market relative to the saturation of a mature market. Competition is good, yes. But there does exist a tipping point within any industry (see automotive) where excessive competition translates to surplus and related, unintended consequences. We have in CK two long-standing relationships with U of Guelph and St Clair College – what would prompt us to introduce another post-secondary institution rather than simply working closer with our current stakeholders?
Question
February 2, 2012 at 12:46 pm
There will always be demand now for University programs, whether it be Harvard University or Wallaceburg University. The job market demands it, and every major market has at least one university.
Both Ridgetown and Thames Campus are satellites of the main University as well. Look at Waterloo…they have several University and college options, which I thought you would know being a Wilfrid Laurier grad yourself.
The real concern is the again budget. I’ve heard numbers anywhere from $50-$100 million just to open the doors of a tiny, limited program stand alone University (and I think these are conservative figures).
What would prompt us to open the doors of another post secondary facility is it would create jobs, bring fresh, intelligent minds into CK, open doors for youth in CK who can’t afford to go away to University but are still at the level to take that type of education, and might even help with our youth retention issues which seem more like an epidemic every day.
But I don’t think anyone knows the actual cost. Perhaps they should talk to Terrance Johnson. He presented on this exact topic at Ignite CK and had a number of interesting facts and figures, including a cost analysis.
Chris Lozon
February 2, 2012 at 1:36 pm
Dispelling another magic bullet theory:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/we-need-more-smarts-for-universities-to-work/article1963950/
I do appreciate that Council is trying to explore such an ambitious opportunity. And to the readers, please understand that disagreement through informed discussion and debate does not equate to negativity. Unfortunately we’re probably 50-75 years behind on the curve on this one.
ChanMac
February 2, 2012 at 2:16 pm
Yes, we need to attract and retain more youth – and I think Caress has hit why. When you go away to school you become entwined in that community and lifestyle. I didn’t want to leave London when I was done school, I’d becoming ingrained in that lifestyle. But it’s because there was something there to get attached to.
For me, I think we need to look at the young fresh minds that are here now and the companies that employ them (and no I’m not trying to toot my own horn, I’ll still be saying this when I’m 60) – the ones that made the conscious decision to come back or move here. For example, Erik Mitchell of DREI in Wallaceburg just spoke at the Ivey School of Business. Born in Wallaceburg, came back to Wallaceburg to build a business that’s thriving to the point that his Alma Mater wants him to talk to the next generation of grads about it. He’s a poster child for what this community can be, but i doubt anyone really knows about him. There have to be more of these people. CK’s population isn’t 50% under the age of 17 and 50% over the age of 35. So let’s find those people and the companies they work for. Show what they’re doing here, how they’re doing it and why this community is a great place to create a facility that will provide the tools to help develop more of these people.
A University isn’t just a big building with ivy growing up the side. University is an experience that’s very much dependant on the environment that the school is situated in. It’s as much about life experience as it is about book learning. So what’s the life experience those students can expect coming to school here? Let’s build that first – then you’ll have a foundation for sustainability and retention. Plop a university here now and you’ll have an influx of students that use and abuse our community for four years and then move to Toronto the minute they have a piece of paper that says they’re smart.
Chris Lozon
February 2, 2012 at 1:14 pm
Perhaps to get started, the committee could touch base with the people from the University of Woodstock – or maybe even the University of Barrie – just to see how they played such an integral role in their own rapidly expanding communities.
Bill Smith
February 2, 2012 at 1:55 pm
With regards to this CK University…what people need to answer is the following. The Government of Ontario is not currently taking in enough funds through taxes, they are short on tax revenue. This means the difference is made up through debt, if you are no aware China finances a ¼ of all US debt. In other words their security is the US. In Canada we are slightly better off due to owning minerals Petro etc, which has helped us financially. The challenge and reality, is a new University were to be built it comes from Tax Payer coffers, lets say it is $100mm, are you comfortable borrowing 20% from China. There are no secrets here the government’s borrower’s money, to pay municipalities, services salaries etc. From a Canadian – Ontarian perspective you can keep going back to the borrowers and asking for more. I am concerned about Canada & Ontario. Yes I will agree if we magically had a University tomorrow in CK, for CK Their will be some benefit. Highly paid Teachers, More Union Jobs – and possible your child can live at home until they 30 pursuing there Trans pipeline Welding Degree. There is fundamentally only one source of revenue for all levels of Governments and that is Taxes. It is obvious watching TV that many countries have borrowed too much, and now are having difficult time to make payments. Greece the lenders, including China have been asked to write of 60% of the debt. In Canada and particularly Ontario are faced with hardships are also very quickly approaching the point of borrowing more than they can pay. We should all be responsible Canadian Citizens, and say no more spending these huge sums of money…..The only thing that pay back debt is CASH, and for every dollar we spend we borrow 30 cents for China & others. It’s not acceptable. The current level is not sustainable.
Bill Smith
February 2, 2012 at 3:28 pm
Caress, Lydia Chanmac – please advise how this is all financed? Please read above an explain to me..Also Chanmac, we need to broaden our Horizons and travel..
@ Chris – great article a little dated just goes to show that we already have too many particularly on a global scale.
ChanMac
February 2, 2012 at 8:22 pm
Bill – not quite sure which part of your comment you’re referring to in regards to financing.
When it comes to recognizing innovative businesses and people in the community in order to build social capital, you’re looking at minimal costs, especially in regards to government funding. I’m talking about increased media awareness of the good things that happen here. Yes, crap happens here – it happens in every community and that needs to be reported on, no doubt. But to go back to my example of Erik and DREI, that company has been featured in a national magazine, and yet the local media has posted nothing. And I don’t mean to harp on the media, I get that they all have limit budgets too. But what our local media publishes about us is what the world see’s of us. If we don’t care to celebrate our own, why should anyone else? And how will outside investors and companies know that this is a community worth looking into?
There are other systems in place as well to help promote our area that are not being used to the fullest. The Ec Dev website (http://portal.chatham-kent.ca/economicdevelopment/Pages/default.aspx) has a “Good News Stories” section that hasn’t been updated since November – that’s not very good news.
There’s a new business magazine that’s being produced by a local business, Web Development 360 I think (I apologize if that’s wrong). Perhaps Ec Dev asks to work with them to provide some more good news stories to put in that magazine – the Windsor business magazine does just that and that publication is everywhere in CK… a local business is offering the medium, let’s work together to use it to it’s fullest potential.
These are not expensive ideas and they certainly don’t require funding. They require effort and creative thinking. They require partnerships, innovation and cooperation.
Creating a planning committee to look into the feasibility of a university is great start, and it’s the proper start to a project of this magnitude. It won’t cost and arm and a leg and it shows accountability. We might be slow to the party as Chris mentioned, but at least we’re clueing in. Perhaps a better alternative will be put forth that wouldn’t have occurred to anyone without the catalyst of these discussions.
Rob
February 2, 2012 at 8:33 pm
ChanMac, This very type of interaction you’re referring to with your Ec.Dev/Business magazine is the kind of thing the Muni is looking for with their involvement with InCK.
Brandon posted an idea and heard back from EcDev.
Give me any ideas you have for creating a useful space for those kinds of interactions to take place and I’ll do it.
I wonder if a discussion board for placing these types of suggestions would be useful?
Anyone have a good idea for this?
ChanMac
February 2, 2012 at 10:02 pm
The InCK platform is a great asset – the budget discussions alone have made that portal a great tool (I know I’ve learned a ton about what goes into budget planning that I would have never known before). The discussion is prompt, a wide variety of municipal factions have provided answers… it’s great.
Side note: By no means was I intending to bash any of the departments in my comment above – I’ve benefited from local media support and have asked for help from Ec Dev (reading it over again now it might come across that way and that wasn’t at all the intention), I just wanted to illustrate some relatively inexpensive ideas that are happening and could be built off of.
Michael Cowtan
February 3, 2012 at 11:11 am
I would just like to throw in some economic facts here, to dispel a few myths. Everything I post comes from the CIA World Factbook.
Canada has the tenth largest economy. Our government debt burden is the lowest in the G8. Our External debt is just over 1 trillion. Sounds high? the USA is 69 trillion. Our external debt is 64% of GDP, sound high?. The USA is 99% of GDP, Australia 95%.
We think of ourselves as a resource economy, not true. Natural resources are less than 7% of our GDP. Manufacturing is twice as much. We produce more vehicles than Michigan. Agri and Agri food products are over 8% of GDP.
50% or our imports come from the USA 11% from China.
China does not “own” Canada. If anyone does, it is the USA and Europe.
Michael Cowtan
February 3, 2012 at 11:24 am
Thanks for the info on DREI, I had never heard of them, or if I have, I don’t remember. I certainly think we should be blowing our own trumpet more than we do………But then so should DREI, and people like them. Someone in Ec Dev should certainly be tasked with updating info in the media and INCK, and a discussion board on What New in Ec Dev would be a good idea.
I found out yesterday about a company in Wallaceburg producing access ramps for the disabled. In modular form, it can be installed in a couple of hours, and from what I see I could do it easily.
Who knew? not me that’s for sure.
http://qramp.com/about-q-ramp/about-the-company/
Marlee
February 3, 2012 at 1:44 pm
When Kathy Weiss was Director of Economic Development, she put out a quarterly report in all media listing good news stories – new hires, new companies, innovative projects.
Perhaps the current Director of Ec Dev Michael Burton would consider continuing that initiative.
Caress Lee
February 2, 2012 at 3:59 pm
As far as how and where the eventual University would go to get it’s funding, I can only assume that it would have to be a mix of federal and provincial funding, private sponsors, public fundraising, etc. I agree with you Bill, that you can’t keep returning to the same ‘givers’ day in and day out. One must recognize, though, that Chatham-Kent is a very unique place as far as potential is concerned. Not only are we located a rough 35 minutes from the border (a plus, clearly, when we consider the amount of American students that attend the University of Windsor and stay once they have received their schooling) but we also are a very LARGE county, and one that – if a University were built, would be an option (#1 option for many) not just in the city of Chatham but in Wallaceburg, Blenheim, Ridgetown, Dresden, and everywhere around and in between. I am not an expert on the topic.. I do, however, know what it is like to go away for school and want very badly to return HOME (Chatham-Kent) but not being able to find the necessary job, volunteer or training opportunities.
I think, for that reason, ChanMac is right. We need work together (NFP sector, business sector, etc) to build an environment that supports its youth, one that is at the forefront of community innovation and one that, like she said – people will not up and leave once they receive their degree or diploma.
Though, a University of Chatham-Kent may not be something that our community is prepared to wake up to tomorrow morning, now is the time to start the planning process (as Sulman is..) given that these sorts of things take years to be put into motion, we have the time to make collaberative, forward-thinking decisions, no matter how large or small scale, to ensure that if and when a Chatham-Kent university is ready to lay its first brick … that we are ready, willing and prepared to be the community we need to be to prosper.
Bill Smith
February 2, 2012 at 4:51 pm
Caress:
The money is a mix as you state, which all comes from taxes payer, and overseas lenders.
Ontario’s debt is $220 BILLION or Caress each Ontario owes $17,000.00 per person. Like a car loan from a Bank. When Ontario borrows they provide security to its lenders which is residents of Ontario.
Sounds like a lot of money hey?
I guess you have to compare apples to apples. California has $60 BILLION – or each Californian owes $1,650.00
$17,000.00 vs. $1,650.oo is significantly different.
It must now borrow more and more to accomplish less and less. It takes some sophistication to conceal this divergence. Ontario’s effective interest rate – the rate it pays, on average, on all of its debt – is 4.5 per cent. Interest payments will thus cost the province $10-billion (Canadian) this year on its $220-BILLION debt. Ontario needs half its deficit to make its interest payments.
I support growth only in Business, which pays taxes – not those that take away i.e all Government Quasi operation.
I would encourage a Private University – but not another Government University.
Caress, just think each year Ontarians pay $10 BILLION in interest alone to the lenders, which is $,7692 per Ontario.
The money was not borrowed to build buildings exclusively it was also borrowed to finance salaries. When can you Caress finance you salary? At a pay day center.
Tks for getting back to me and the debate have a good one!
Question
February 2, 2012 at 6:48 pm
Interesting comment stream here.
Lydia I’ve heard that same story played over dozens of times. Sometimes we are our own worst enemies.
Caress and ChanMac both have valid points. Developing our local businesses and supporting entrepreneurs in growing sectors needs to be a priority in order to give students a reason to be retained. This is a chicken or the egg argument. If we build a university will it improve the social scene, spark innovation, and create jobs? I think it would. If we improve our social scene, support local business to create jobs, would we need a university to retain youth? Probably not. But which is the ultimate answer?
Bill can I ask how old you are?
I think this is a mistake we’ve been making locally. When talking about youth retention and deciding whether CK is a place that youth would like to attend a university and then stay, why don’t we ask youth? Caress is in charge of a program highly related to youth retention and engagement with the United Way. ChanMac has helped to re-develop and build the CK Young Entrepreneurs group. These are the people we should be asking. Once we identify these short comings and fix some, then we may be better positioned to offer that full package experience….not just a piece of paper diploma, but also a community experience that entices people to stay.
BUT, Bill you do make good points about the financial burdens related to such a venture, and that is something nobody can deny.
I think if we focus on supporting the young people we have, and developing better programming at St. Clair College, along with building relationships for co-op or internship positions with existing universities across Ontario to send students to CK, we may be able to solve this problem without a “new” university.
If they want a university, I vote for aother satellite campus, something not focused on agriculture or the trades since we have two fine facilities that look after those areas.
Bill Smith
February 2, 2012 at 7:55 pm
Sure late 30’s and not completely out of my youth! And agree we do need new development, more entrepreneurial youth & growth….But I find some of this stuff ridiculous. If I was on Council I could make a motion to have an group study the benefits of building an International Airport, and say it will create jobs, infrastructure etc which it will!. However the price tag is still picked up by the tax payer….someone still pay the $100mm….I think some of the people are onto a few things……you have to start small, like the new Deli, sugar Shack and build up…we all know every country is fiscally challenged, we also know that Canada has more universities per capita than any other country on Earth! Even though we live in CK, we still have a responsibility to Canadians to look after the money. I don’t support the idea at all unless University of Phoenix comes. Thanks for the debate…
Bill Smith
February 2, 2012 at 8:52 pm
Hiya Chan Mac – without sounding like a stuck record and not sure if I answered your question. A University costs around $100 Million to set up, Universities and Colleges are not self sustaining, they require ongoing Federal and Provincial Funding, even if full they are a net drain on tax payers. WHO PAYS THE $100mm and ONGOING COST.
Sure there are a few that benefit.
I am 100% for business development, small business of any type. That is the only true generator of wealth. When economists measure the economies (the only thing that funds Hospitals, Universities Municipalities and social services). They don’t care about St Clair College or others, they measure it on Business and even on CIK Marketing gets included. We need more business like yours…you do a great job, don’t cost tax payers a cent and fully engaged with our community!
Lydia Tanner
February 3, 2012 at 8:28 am
I think Bill has a very noble character. Living within your means is something government has not done for a very long time, and should do more of. The system however for now is set up with various pots of Provincial and Federal money for different projects. If we as a community decide not to go after any of this money, and think that it will not be spent anyway, we will sadly be mistaken. The system is definately not ideal, but if money is going to be spent lets have some projects on the table that we can go after that funding with. In todays “use it or lose it” political atmosphere, I think we should try to “use it”. If we don’t there are more then a few communities around us that will.
Michael Cowtan
February 3, 2012 at 12:20 pm
The Globe and Mail has an interesting article this morning on Canada’s changing demographic, best illustrated by this “infographic”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canadas-aging-population/article2324991/?from=2324976
For the first time in recorded history, This year, Canada will have the same number of people entering the work force, as those leaving it. Just thirty years ago there were twice as many entering as leaving.