Home » Chatham-Kent Local News » “Chatham-Kent is Creating a Story,” says Mayor Hope
“Chatham-Kent is Creating a Story,” says Mayor Hope
In speaking to a group of Chatham-Kent youth yesterday, Mayor Randy Hope made two points clear: Chatham-Kent is creating a story of success, and the youth of the community need to be a part of that story.
“Understand your voice is needed,” Hope said, “I’m begging you for your views, insights, input, and feedback for what Chatham-Kent needs to be a world leader.”
Hope spoke to the teenagers for over an hour asking questions of the youth and encouraging them to use their voice and become involved. Hope explained to the group that they are involved in politics from the moment they wake up and in everything they do.
He also pointed out that Chatham-Kent has a high school drop out rate above provincial averages and a percentage of university educated residents below provincial averages; and that without youth involvement, these problems may get worse.
“If we don’t start today,” Hope stated in response to planning toward the future when these teens turn 20 years of age, “you will not be a resident of Chatham-Kent.”
Talking about his job in Chatham-Kent, Hope stated, “The unfortunate part is we’re losing our young people.”
“The Most difficult thing I have is trying to identify with the young people to figure out what will stop them from going away.”
Mayor Hope did speak of attempting to lure jobs requiring higher education to Chatham-Kent, and even discussed the possibility of a “University of Chatham-Kent.” Hope said his goal is to create a “University of Chatham-Kent” and increase relationships with Ridgetown College and St. Clair College to develop youth with skills in Chatham-Kent’s areas of strength including agriculture, the environment, and technology. He also spoke of the potential of hosting satellite campuses, mentioning a possible future relationship with Algoma University.
When Hope asked how many youth planned to go to university or college, the room was filled with raised hands; however, when he asked how many planned to attend a Chatham-Kent post secondary school, every hand dropped.
In response to a question about the need for jobs requiring a higher education, Hope said that “Chatham-Kent needs to create a success story,” and “is creating a success story” in order to lay the groundwork for these jobs.
Hope pointed to businesses such as KSR and Tek Savvy which are creating a technological success story in Chatham-Kent that can then be used to market the area to similar industries.
Hope also stated that a major factor to creating this positive message is getting rid of our coffee shop talk mentality where residents speak negatively of the community. Specifically, Hope pointed to negative comments related to a single local labor union dispute that caused Chatham-Kent’s image to be smeared nationally.
Conversely, Hope encouraged residents to look at the greater number of positive worker and union related stories that saved jobs in Chatham-Kent including those from Dajcor and Fabco.
For the most part, the youth asked for improved entertainment options, tree planting and protection of spaces such as Paxton’s Bush, an improved downtown core (building restoration and shopping), as well as increased and improved recreational facilities.
In closing, Hope returned to his request for input and participation from young people, admitting this is one aspect that Chatham-Kent is missing, including a missing youth presence with the recent Workforce Planning Board.
“Your voice is loud, but you don’t use it.”
Michael C
December 15, 2010 at 6:40 am
Well………….I guess the first thing is to recognise the problem, so I guess we are at step one.
laughing politics
December 15, 2010 at 9:18 am
What the hell is wrong with Hope. A University of C-K? He just turned one down not that long ago, so why the change of heart? Doesn’t this violate some confidentiality with the other university that wanted to locate here and was talking to the Municipality. Lawsuit anyone? I’m sure that Jason B. is just livid right now and this will send a strong message to other potential investors looking at C-K that “Hey, come present us your proposal. We’ll turn you away and go it our own with someone else.” Way to generate development, innovation, and creativity in this community, Administration.
It’s interesting that all the youth’s hands dropped when asked if they would attend a post-secondary school in C-K. That I think speaks volumes of our successful such an institution would be here.
marlee
December 15, 2010 at 11:51 am
All the Councillors who attended the strategic planning programme agreed that one way of attracting and keeping young professionals to Chatham-Kent was to offer more post-secondary options within the municipality. In speaking with high school students, Mayor Hope is talking the talk. The next step will be to walk the walk – and this will take the support of Council, citizens and the province.
And whether a previous opportunity was missed or not, is no reason we should not move forward now with offering more and better options for advanced education – both academic and technical.
This is about thinking positively and looking to the future.
ChanMac
December 15, 2010 at 9:46 pm
I honestly don’t think you can just plop a university here and expect it to attract thousands of students who will then decide to stay and work here. I went to UWO in London not just because it’s a well regarded school, but because there’s a strong offering of entry level jobs for students when they graduate – companies were constantly recruiting new grads for administrative positions, and base jobs that had the potential of leading to bigger and better things. When I graduated I knew I could find a satisfying starter career – is that available here? How can make that available?
Plus the town had university-friendly amenities. We have a satellite campus for Guelph here in Ridgetown and, not to offend any Ridgetown residents, I think it’s lovely there, but what is there for a 19 year old to do on a Saturday night?
Hope has to think big picture when it comes to a university. Partnering with a school like Algoma (p.s. – has anyone ever heard of this university?) won’t really solve the core issue, which I think is attracting and retaining young, educated citizens.
Chris Lozon
December 16, 2010 at 1:18 am
ChanMac,
I agree completely. By Hope’s logic CK high school grads would show a pronounced tendency to attend the nearest universities. However the decision re: which university to attend is based more on career aspirations, program offerings and school reputation. For example, I personally attended Wilfrid Laurier because they were reputed to have an excellent business program. Sure Windsor was closer, but that really didn’t factor into the decision-making process.
If anything, I would guess many if not most university-bound graduates like the idea of getting ‘away’ to experience a little independence. The trick – as you have alluded to – is developing an economy and community that can attract these students back to CK upon graduation or even later when looking to settle down and start a family.
mikeymoney
December 15, 2010 at 10:39 am
yeah this is who “we” voted for…good grief.
Chris Lozon
December 15, 2010 at 12:12 pm
Just a thought re: mikemoney’s comment:
If Council is serious about reforming ward structure and addressing other electoral issues, we may want to have some discussion and public debate around adopting a run-off format for the Mayor’s Office. It would certainly help validate the successful candidate, reinforce their mandate and would likely lessen the level of scrutiny we naturally attribute to a ‘minority’ Mayor.
http://www.rabble.ca/news/2010/10/moving-forward-municipal-voting-reform-toronto
IK
December 15, 2010 at 12:53 pm
As a clarification, the hands went down in reply to current post secondary options in Chatham-Kent, which do not fit the pathway for university bound students.
Steve
December 15, 2010 at 2:27 pm
It just confirms our place as a hick conservative back water; not much interesting going on here. The kids aren’t stupid. That’s the challenge Hope. Unfortunately the only things we’re world class at is corn, soybeans and tomatoes. BORING!
laughing politics
December 15, 2010 at 2:58 pm
I agree. I found it interesting that Hope said C-K’s strengths were in the environment and technology. Yes, we have a lot of wind turbines, but that doesn’t mean its our strength. It just means our location is strategic for wind capacity. Outside of that, I don’t consider the environment a key strength of C-K, particularly considering all the sewage and other junk that is in the Thames and Sydenham rivers. As for technology, there are few technology companies in C-K to consider it a strength. Now Waterloo has a strength in technology.
Rob
December 15, 2010 at 3:36 pm
If we want to attract technology business, we first need to attract an M&M factory.
Michael C
December 15, 2010 at 3:58 pm
Any Mars Chocolate facility will do
Rob
December 15, 2010 at 5:00 pm
I know techies love M&M’s – Marses bars too?
Michael C
December 15, 2010 at 5:18 pm
They are environmentally friendly, and one of the top 100 employers in Canada. Have lots of high tech jobs too so I understand.
Dan
December 17, 2010 at 8:09 am
An M&M factory makes total sense….a little know C-K fact is that the chocolate that goes into M&M’s is made at a factory right here in Chatham on Colborne Street…or at least it was a few yrs ago, unless those jobs were recently moved to Mexico or Asia too!
IK
December 15, 2010 at 5:18 pm
Funny you say that, because he also said the Thames and Sydenham are two of the most underutilized recreational assets we have.
CK Farmer
December 15, 2010 at 3:20 pm
Why do you find agriculture boring? Do you eat? Is that boring? The next time you open your fridge, or put food on the table for your kids, you tell them that everything the hard working people that made that meal possible do, is boring.
marlee
December 16, 2010 at 5:50 am
You forgot blueberries, lavender, corn – oh, birding (people come from all over the world to watch our migratory birds); black history (THOUSANDS come for the Homecoming Weekend); thousands more will come for the commemoration of the War of 1812 which will actually spread over several years – the Battle of the Thames is where Tecumseh was killed in 1813 – mark it in your calendar now as have many people all over Canada and the States; our historic architecture, some of the earliest in Ontario;
I could go on – and on – and on. I bet you could too if you opened your eyes.
Jim in Wallaceburg
December 15, 2010 at 5:24 pm
Good to read the Mayor is opening a dialog with the youth of our community. Certainly luring jobs that require a higher education and a university satellite campus would be progressive for Chatham-Kent.
I do not believe these to be new needs. Certainly those were wishes four years ago when Hope assumed the Mayor’s role and no doubt for many years before that.
And nice to read the youth priorities include tree planting and protection of spaces such as Paxton’s Bush – this is a generation that we can not afford to loose.
Marlee has it right that we need to move from the talk to the walk – so what kind of action will council put in place to move the agenda and priorities of our youth forward?
Fidel Kilpatrick
December 15, 2010 at 8:58 pm
Regardless of what you think of Mayor Hope or whether or not you voted for the guy; the fact is that he’s our Mayor and we’ve got him for 4 more years. Cut the guy a little slack, folks. At least he’s not hiding and he does make a great point that what youth have to say in this community should count for something. He hasn’t been a MPP since 1995, so we can quit blaming the guy for Bob Rae. He’s not even remotely an “Iggy” as he’s lived here for most of his life. I doubt he’s a fan of Stephen Harper, so you can’t peg him as a “conservative hick”. Rather than post negative comments here, why not call his office and give him some suggestions? Ya get what ya pay for, so let’s put this guy to work for the benefit of all C-K citizens.
IK
December 16, 2010 at 12:25 am
I thought it was encouraging he was asking and engaging with youth. Whether I personally agreed with everything he said that day is irrelevent because we can’t keep complaining. We need to work with what we have, and who we have, and start making things happen toward a positive Chatham-Kent.
I think Hope brought forward some good ideas, and some bad ones, but he put them out there, people gave feedback, and hopefully, he listened to and will consider that feedback and will continue to listen to our feedback in person, and here on the CKDP.
JP
December 16, 2010 at 2:18 pm
Lack of jobs, and lack of recreation are the two main reasons the youth are leaving Chatham. In Chatham-Kent there is not much for them to do. If they want to go to the movies they go to Windsor, London or Sarnia (sorry Cinema 6 you don’t stand a chance). If they want to go to the bars they do the same. It is also the same with shopping. The sad story just keep repeating itself over and over again. Personally I don’t blame them for leaving. Why would you come back to a town you disliked so much as a youth. On top of that, the job market is poor enough that it can’t over power the bad memories of perpetual boredom.
Lets create an atmosphere, that makes people want to stay. The type of environment that makes people want to come back. It is this type of atmosphere that will make outside investors come to Chatham. and stay in Chatham.
Dan
December 17, 2010 at 9:22 am
I agree with both Chanmac and Chris Lozon on many of their points, but would like to add a few points.
I happen to believe that with post secondary education it is an instance of “if you build it, they will come”. Yes, many local young people like to “get away”, but this is also true of all the young people everywhere else. Youth from all over Ontario may consider Chatham as a place to “get away”, but the programs need to be offered first. We will still pick up some local youth from families who can not afford higher education in far off places. Students spend tons of money, not just on tuition and books, but everything else, and would look at Chatham as a place their money will stretch further, particularly for housing, food and fun. Colleges and universities create jobs, from teachers to administrative to maintenance, and the spin off jobs in the community would be phenomenal!! Colleges and universities also bring in huge sums of federal and provincial money which CK often misses out on. Yes, some govt money is spent by St Clair college and Ridgetown’s Guelph satellite, but the lion’s share of those grants and subsidies is spent on those institutions main hometown campus’. There is no doubt there is demand for higher education. Both the above institutions above have reported record enrollment in recent years, most of their programs are filled to capacity. Thousands of students don’t get into any college or university every year because spaces are limited..obviously demand exceeds supply. It seems that govt is partially to blame for allowing this imbalance to continue.
St Clair College used to partner with the University of Windsor, maybe it still does…but when i was trying to finish my degree I was able to take some of my U of W courses at St Clair college and would have done more if only the selection of courses had been much better, sadly I had to spend way more money travelling to Windsor.
It doesn’t mean we necessarily have to build an entire new post secondary institute, but it should be worked towards. When it comes to which comes first..the chicken or the egg…more businesses will not necessarily attract post secondary institutions…but those post secondary institutions most certainly do attract businesses imho!
IK
December 17, 2010 at 10:21 am
Exactly. Students do like to get away and would “get away” to CK if we had competitive programs and courses at a University level. It might not be an instantly attractive destination, but bringing in an extra few thousand students each year would do wonders for the local economy. After the educational opportunities came, the rest would follow.
ChanMac
December 17, 2010 at 4:16 pm
I get what you’re saying Dan – by improving the post secondary offerings here, CK will benefit from the fact that more students will come here, and even if they don’t decide to stay permanently, they will have still helped boost our economy while they were here. And businesses will see that educated individuals are here and will want to set up shop here to take advantage of that. It makes logical sense, but what’s attracting all of those students to come to a school here?
Ask the vast majority of high school students where they want to to go to school and they’re going to say somewhere far away in a big city. How do you convince a student from Toronto to pack up and move to one of the most rural areas in Ontario for four years? To a brand new school with no prestigious history? Sure, living costs are low, but is that really enough incentive? What are the qualities that make Chatham-Kent great <- that's what I think needs to be focused on. Once we figure that out and really capitalize on those things, industries and students will want to come to here for the right reasons, not just because it's cheap.
The whole "University of CK" thing worries me, the expectations just don't seem realistic. I don't think we need to have a University to be a successful municipality that can attract sustainable industries. It would a great addition, but not the answer to all of the area's problems.
Rob
December 17, 2010 at 4:24 pm
People with companies looking to relocate here (particularly from other countries) want to know their kids can go to school close to home.
Remember that some other cultures like to keep their kids closer.
(Update – Don’t get me wrong – I just mean we allow our kids to go abroad for schooling whereas families from some cultures avoid parting at all costs.)
Dan
December 17, 2010 at 6:46 pm
I think when it comes to education that all the liesure and recreation activities really are a secondary consideration. Yes, youth like something to do, but when they are forking over a small fortune, “most” students are prioritizing the educational program. You don’t hear many saying “well I got accepted to these two schools..this one has a better program but i think i will go to this one because there are better bars.”
And again I think its a matter of looking at which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Thinking that business will open all kinds of attractions and recreation without the population to support them is highly unlikely. We heard about the options of promoting CK as a retirement community. If that happens, you can be sure that several more funeral hommes will be looking to open there doors due to the senior population increase. It only makes sense. But those funeral homes are not gonna open before the population makes it viable. Same with students..expanding programs, residences etc. will create the viability for new businesses with the extra experience students are looking for to open, and they will once the opportunity is in place. Again, not all students get into post secondary, not necessarily because of theyre marks, but because there are limited spaces and even if they can’t go where they would like, they will go where they can! Its like a captive guaranteed market due to demand exceeding supply. If colleges and universities were allowed to be completely private like in the USA, we would likely have already had eager entreprenuers who saw the opportunity opening more colleges in many small Canadian towns. Im quite positive that aggressively pursueing lots more post secondary educational opportunities here is the fastest route back to prosperity. I remember many, many people who were travelling to Windsor for college and university from here in CK when i attended and almost all of them would have preferred to have taken the courses here if they had the choice. But alas we were at the mercy of the administrators who decided what would and would not be offered here. There were many empty classrooms at St Clair college when i took my evening courses. But part of the problem is an elitist attitude in higher education where those who run them don’t want to risk getting a reputation that they will accept anyone…such as the joke about University of Windsor’s nickname..”Last Chance U”, but they really do have some very good programs there. In contrast to the USA where these places are ‘for profit’…U may not recognize many places names, but they want to take as many people as possible for the revenue, they are accreditted programs, and many more people get a good education this way.
To conclude, I simply believe that more post secondary opportunities here is likely the single fastest way to improve quality of life here..everything else will follow if we pursue this course.
Chris Lozon
December 18, 2010 at 1:24 am
ChanMac, I think you and I are in lockstep on this issue. The concept of establishing a University of CK is noble and all, but it may amount to nothing more than fool’s gold. A red herring if you will. This is likely just another in a long list of grandiose ideas that lead down a path to nowhere. If you recall in the not-so-distant past, an Industrial Park was what we needed to atract industry and, even more recently, 500 wind turbine approvals were to put us at the top of the list for ‘green jobs’. Neither has come to fruition. Establishing a University of CK would be subject to the same competitive challenges in attracting students as we encouter in luring jobs.
I’m not against the idea, but I would suggest we start by working in closer partnership with U of Guelph and St. Clair College first – like perhaps through jointly-funded community recreation facilities (or was this not already opposed by Mayor Hope???) – and see where our existing opportunities/relationships lead.
Rob
December 18, 2010 at 1:29 am
Good comment Chris. What would you say should be at the top of our list?
Chris Lozon
December 18, 2010 at 12:23 pm
Rob, as you can probably establish from my election campaign platform, we need to spend every ounce of effort and available resources in developing a ‘silver economy’.
Nearly 100 million people will retire in North America in the next 25 years…we need to get 10,000, 20,000, 30,000 or so – whatever it takes – of the best, brightest and wealthiest to live here. Wind turbines are land-locking our best real estate (lakefront property). So let’s put the brakes on wind turbines. Invest and develop our infrastructure along the lakefronts for residential/commercial expansion and focus our marketing as a lifestyle community for empty-nest baby-boomers. Brand Talbot Trail similar to Silicon Valley, but for aspiring entrepreneurs across all industries that might enjoy lakeside living and recreational amenities. Similar opportunities exist in the Lake St. Clair region, but with the added benefit of being able to leverage francophone heritage and culture.
Do we want a university? Alright then. What if we start with a re-training and business centre geared towards mature students and aspiring boomer-entrepreneurs at the Southwest Regional Centre campus? Maybe in time that becomes a Polytech institute. Maybe (way) in the future we can consolidate the regional centre campus with Ridgetown Campus and Thames Campus (would obviously require serious discussion and negotiation with existing Institutions) under a single University charter. But if all that were to happen, it will have flowed by focusing on being great at one thing – getting successful, experienced people with career renewal aspirations to live out their silver/golden years in CK. All good things (including large industry) will flow from leveraging from this approach.
We need to diversify out of leverage. And what we need to leverage is what we have and who we are instead of chasing what we’re not and/or what we don’t have. Let the river form the delta.
Dan
December 18, 2010 at 9:43 am
Just to be clear here, I don’t think i have suggested at any point in my posts here that we establish or build an entirely new, stand alone educational facility called the “University of CK.” I had read my posts again to confirm this, and it seems the phrase was coined in one of Chanmac’s replies, so maybe there was some misinterpretation of what I am suggesting. Im not suggesting a billion dollars is going to drop out of the sky to build a whole new institution!
I most certainly do advocate partnerships and the expansion of program offerings with the 2 post secondary facilities we already have here. The expansion of program offerings is my central point. And if those 2 established post secondary facilities are not willing to expand those program offerings, then by all means we should be looking for additional partners as well. There are plenty of closed down schools and other empty buildings in this municipality that could serve as, or be developed into ‘classrooms’, and i mean this in both the traditional and non-traditional sense. And if at some point in the far future these smaller facilities were amalgamated to form a U of CK, well all the better. In fact many Universities are the development of amalgamations. Take for example London..Richard Ivey School of business, Kings College and several other colleges that were once separate entities and then brought under one umbrella of the U of Western Ontario. Ridgetown College became a campus of the U of Guelph..I don’t think this was always the case, but i could be wrong. But this is all way down the road.
When ChanMac asks, “How do you convince a student from Toronto to pack up and move to one of the most rural areas in Ontario for four years?” my answer is again, the program offerings! Unless the student can afford to go international or get one of the limited and fiercely competitive international scholarships, theyre is a limited number of schools to choose from and just as limited number of spaces to choose from here in Ontario. Many students at Ridgetown College come from Toronto and any number of larger urban areas. What convinced them to pack up and move to little old Ridgetown? The program offering they need is offered there or they couldn’t get into a space where it was offered somewhere else. Not every program at Ridgetown is “how to be a farmer” btw.
I’ll go further and suggest ways we could expand program offerings as well, if these 2 facilities are unwilling to partner. Approach the businesses. All these new windmills and solar panels need trained technicians to maintain them. Gears need to be greased, circuits get corroded and need to be replaced, and technicians need safety training specific to these jobs. As far as I know these tech are trained elsewhere and brought in…why not use a few classrooms in an abandoned school, or even put a wind turbine generator and solar panal array in an abandoned factory and train those technicians right here, before some other municipality or school jumps on this opportunity…hopefully we are not too late and someone else has beat us to it! There are all kinds of businesses that look for specific training and educational needs that would have interest in partnering to expand educational opportunities. In Sarnia’s chemical valley there is a special school set up for training employees and outside contractors to work at the chemical factory and refineries. These businesses pooled their money and resources to create this separate entity school to meet their combined needs. On completion students receive and id card with the expiry date of their current training in each category which is good for entry into any of the participating facilities. The same training is also a valid ticket for any other non participating facility as well. I also don’t understand why our hospitals are not better utilized as teaching facilities also, given that we are constantly told of the shortage of healthcare professionals. We have nursing programs at St Clair College, why not also use vacant classrooms combined with onsite hospital training internships to train the people we need.
So hopefully I’ve been more clear here. I do not suggest we build ourselves a new stand alone college or university. I am suggesting we aggressively pursue educational programs and opportunities which are not offered here and are in demand, in order to bring new people to our community. Not all of thesse people will stay, each year many will leave, but some will stay, and each year a whole new group will come to start the first year of their program. Everyone seems to agree that population growth will contribute to the growth of everythig else, and this is just one of many great ways to do just that. And following this course of action will bring the youth that everyone keeps complaining are leaving, not to mention that it will create a much more positive impression that our community is progressive. We can pursue this in small steps or big steps, but we need to take those steps.
And one more thing. I am not suggesting that we ignore any other opportunities to make CK a place that youth will want to come to or stay in. We should be working on those at the same time, but the horse goes before the cart. When businesses see that we are attracting youth, that we have the education and training programs they need for their employees without the need to send them an hour or more away for such training complete with travel and accommodation costs because the training is right here…..then those businesses will WANT to come here. And more than that, businesses which have nothing to do with these educational programs will start coming here too because they only care about the population numbers to determine of the market is viable enough to operate. Our population is the exact reason we have so much fewer shopping options here. As Rob so wisely pointed out about Kevin O’leary’s favourite phrase “it all about the MOOONNNNEEEYYY!!!” More people = more money!!
George
December 17, 2010 at 2:18 pm
Here in Blenheim one of the big, but poorly reported on, stories that Mr. Hope speaks of is the story of illegal drugs being sold to our youth.
It is interesting that the mayor considers youth important, given the sad fact that the municipality has failed to close down the variety store (located 2 doors down from the Blenheim high school), that sells illegal drugs to Blenheim’s youth
((
Drug abuse by high school students is closely tied to drop out rates, poor grades and community crime.
Here in Blenheim, we have about 6 drug hotspots that continue to operate daily. This drug problem is kept
very quiet amongst municipal officials and community leaders, but the fact is that this community is under seige by drug dealers, pot growers, meth labs and outside gang influence. It is time for municipal officials to wake up and deal with this problem in Blenheim.
Municipal officials, when contacted, repeatedly express their “frustration” with the “ONGOING” problem of drugs in Blenheim.
Mr. Hope, put OUR money where your mouth is and get OUR police out to the high school on a daily basis. The high school represents the highest concentration of youth and illegal drugs. Perhaps it is time to establish a task force with real and achievable goals … and deal with this issue NOW !
We can never expect our community to reap the rewards of success when internal and external drug dealers prey on our most valuable resource – our children … our future.
WhyMeLord
December 17, 2010 at 3:37 pm
This is why we need the OPP to give us a costing and for our elected representatives to see the light that we can have a better service for less money. CKPS is too top heavy and that’s why they can’t put enough front line officers on the streets to battle the scourges that are plaguing our youth.
When there is one officer to cover the territory from Dealtown to Rushton’s Corners, from 401 south to Lake Erie, how can you expect any proactive policing to be done in the most populated part of South Kent?
Do we really need so many chiefs and inspectors?
Harry
December 17, 2010 at 3:23 pm
So interesting, ironic, and perhaps sad that there’s more debate, discussion and back and forth here than during the whole municipal campaign and all the so-called “debates.”
Rob
December 17, 2010 at 3:39 pm
I agree.
The debates were so tightly formatted etc. that there was no room at all for actual discussion. Take Chatham for example – it was impossible to consider a debate with the number of candidates.
In addition, I’m not sure why no candidates – to my recollection – actually discussed much in the way of concrete plans or issues. They seemed to touch broad spaces like “We need to create jobs”, as opposed to giving any indication of how this might be accomplished.
The web format provides a really effective means of collaboration – which is hard to organize in a meeting or debate environment. People are able to suggest topics, ones with legs get picked up, weak ideas get ignored. Respondents also have time to give some actual thought to their replies as well – making for a much more focused and solid discussion.
The other fact of the matter is that the medium is just where people are at these days. The Wallaceburg debate brought around 40 people – but almost a dozen of those were family members of candidates, or from outside Ward 5. Meaning – public debates aren’t where candidates needed to go to meet their audience where they’re at.
We at CKDP learned a lot from this past election, and I think candidates did too. Look for a much deeper discussion next election as we adjust to accommodate the candidates in sharing their ideas, and forcing them to go past the “I have four kids, did volunteer work and I’m gunna fight for more jobs” – kind of platform.
It seemed too that perhaps media providers lacked the courage to ask direct questions designed to illicit a direct response. For our part, it was a learning experience just to see how an election is carried out.
The next one won’t be like this one was – you can be sure of that.
Rob
December 17, 2010 at 3:52 pm
I’ll also point out that this discussion was made possible by Mayor Hope actually providing a piece of his vision. – A university.
While there are varying opinions on how this might be achieved, I hope the Mayor realizes that just opening the door a bit, and revealing one of his ideas is resulted in a very positive conversation, and he engaged people with his idea. – Mayor Hope… this is how you defeat the defeatist tone in these forums. Give us actual facts and concepts to deal with, and answer to the thoughts and suggestions raised. Engage CK and CK will engage you back.
Leave us to our own devices, with no sense of direction or purpose, and all we have to work with is our own feelings or beliefs that nothing is happening, or ever will. The discussion will take place with or without you – it’s the way of new media (remember? “We’re on a global stage – like it or not”). So better you get into the conversation and manage it, shape it into something of value, than leave it directionless (and perhaps hopeless).
And let’s not forget that the quickest route to ensuring the mayor, CKED, Council or any other person or group leaves the conversation “table” is treating them unfairly or disrespectfully. Taking a conversation public is a precarious thing for a person in a role… whereas we get to hide behind screen names… so take care of it when it comes, because it’s valuable.
A note to readers… Mayor Hope was not aware he was in the company of a CKDP reporter when he spoke at the school. Ian was undercover as his alternate personality – a high school teacher – at the time.
laughing politics
December 17, 2010 at 4:31 pm
Rob,
I think its important to remember that the idea of opening a university in C-K was NOT Hope’s idea, and he deserves absolutely NO credit for this. The idea was brought forward to him back in 2008 by a developer, which he turned down, and now wants all the credit for himself.
Rob
December 17, 2010 at 5:14 pm
Doesn’t matter. And besides, what’s the point of your comment?
Where the idea was born, who came up with it – irrelevant. Take your eyes off the person and put them on the goal. The university idea is in response to what outside companies who want to locate in CK are asking for. It’s not the developer of 2008′s idea, nor the Mayor’s idea.
I don’t know all of what went on with the old offer – there are about a billion reasons one deal may go ahead where another similar deal might be turned down flat. Could be the Mayor turned down a good deal, could be he saved us from a terrible mistake. Don’t know. Don’t care. It’s not 2008 anymore.
Those of you who only want to focus on slamming one person or another be it the Mayor or anyone else bore me. I’m interested in productive discussion with vision. I really don’t care what you think of the Mayor. I honestly don’t have much feeling about him either way – I don’t know his mind. Show me your ideas and your vision and I’m interested.
IK
December 17, 2010 at 5:40 pm
It’s true. Often the people who actually came up with an idea, aren’t the ones who see it through to fruition. At this point it’s irrelevant who came up with the idea, but rather, the question is, is the idea valid? Personally, I think a satellite campus (or two) would be a great step, whether it is from Algoma or a more respected local school such as Windsor or UWO. The risk is smaller for CK citizens, it still gives students the option of a university education within Chatham-Kent, would bring jobs, and help to begin solving our apparent lack of higher education. A University of CK is a huge goal. It would be an excellent addition, but it isn’t a magical solution to all of our problems, it’s just a potential piece to the puzzle.
laughing politics
December 17, 2010 at 6:11 pm
I believe it is important who came up with the idea.
For starters, how would you feel if you brought an idea/opportunity forward and someone else took credit for it? I’d imagine if you are like most people, you would feel not so good, and that you would be less inclined to bring other ideas or opportunities forward in the future. I’ve seen this occur countless times in many different workplaces. This will restrict creativity and the development of any vision for C-K’s future.
Second, in my experience, business people/developers tend to know one another either directly or indirectly. From what I’ve heard of this Jason B., his contacts in the business world run deep. I’ve heard he’s well respected and friends with many upper management in companies from Navistar to the Big Three to even Samsung. If word starts to spread how the municipality basically screwed him here, word will get around, and other developers and businesses will be less inclined to even look at C-K for fear of the same thing happening to them and because most business people tend to lookout for one another (at least to an extent).
Sorry, but I’m a firm believer that the full fallout from this move by Hope has yet to be fully seen and felt by this community.
Rob
December 17, 2010 at 8:23 pm
It would be impossible to say who’s idea anything was. Who’s to say I wasn’t thinking a university would be a great thing for CK in 2007?
Jason B would then be a year late and stealing my idea. The conversation of who’s idea it was is silly.
Investors do know each other yes. But you know what? You’ll never convince me that a company like Samsung would not come to CK because of some project proposal from one investor that was turned down, or even who sits in the Mayor’s chair.
Hear Kevin O’Leary’s voice when I say “IT’S ALL ABOUT THE MOOOONNNEEEEYYYYY!!!”
A company will come here because they feel they would be best positioned here to MAKE MOOONNNEEYYYYY. As well as the perks and other things offered (schools, theatres, parks, twin-pad, Con-Ex, – hell… kickbacks, bribes who knows?) .
What the Mayor and Council are trying to do is bring in the basic assets an area needs to attract companies. Why they didn’t feel Jason’s school was worth pursuing I don’t know – but to say building a school is an innovative idea to attract investment is silly. It’s a staple piece, and always has been.
Bobber
December 17, 2010 at 8:31 pm
I think the problem is we’re too worried about who gets the credit. This is about developing CK. Not about developing the reputation of Hope or Jason B.
I think you’re over estimating the role of this one individual as well, if he had the connections you say he does, wouldn’t we have landed the wind contract.
You’re over dramaticizing this. The idea is to get higher education and a better CK, not glory for any one individual.
Dan
December 17, 2010 at 6:54 pm
I completely agree with u Rob that the web format is an excellent way and probably most effective for politicians to really be in touch with what the people want. In a way i am surprised that it has not caught on much more given the amount of time this technology has been with us now. Sadly, I am also not surprised that the politicians do not take more advantage of this format, because then they would not have an excuse for some of the crap they ram down our throats ie. the HST. There is absolutely no reason anymore that citizen polls could not be set up for key policy and law votes at all levels of govt that would start making politicians vote the true will of the people. Not expecting to see it in my lifetime tho cuz this would take away most of their power and give it back to the people where it belongs. They have far to much incentive to not let us have a real say.
Rob
December 18, 2010 at 12:41 am
Dan,
The candidates using our platform (or any web platform for that matter) will come. It’s a learning period right now for both the candidates, and the providers (us).
Next election I expect the councillors to seek us out more. We will also know what to provide them with to help them leverage it successfully.
Another reason I have heard that some folks from Council/Admin are hesitant to get on here is that they don’t trust me to manage the conversation fairly. During the summer for example, I let a few comments get by me that were aimed at some high-ranking Admin personnel that were completely unacceptable. One was called “a waste of skin” or something… it was lousy. (And that’s why we enjoy full-moderation on CKDP now!!)
But they WILL come to get it – to learn that they can still manage an open conversation online, and benefit from it. In Feb 08 McCain raised $11M for his campaign. In the same month Obama attended zero fundraisers, but used the web to raise $55M. Some get it, some don’t.
I don’t believe web polling is now, or likely ever will be a viable way to accurately collect data. There are too many ways to game the results.
Michael C
December 18, 2010 at 7:51 am
I agree on direct web polling Rob. There are certain groups on the web who make it a game to swing on-line polls, but I doubt that is what the previous commentator was suggesting. I suspect he was in favour of voting on issues via the web, completely different.
I am against that as well mind. The “tyranny of the majority” and all that. If it ever happens, we will have a very busy Supreme Court, throwing out unconstitutional laws, and the same majority will be up in arms about the “democratic process being undermined by unelected judges”
Dan
December 18, 2010 at 11:07 am
Hi Michael, you are correct about what I am in favour of. But I dont mean for the public to be voting on every little detail either. The laws would still need to be written and crafted by the lawyers and appropriate administrators whose specialty’s are supposed to be to ensure the laws are written in conformance with the constitution. I was just typing a post, likely close below or above this one that describes how I think this voting could be accomplished that u may be interested to read. The voting i refer to would be on the bills that are already going to be crafted, introducedand voted on by our MPs and MPPs anyway. I would just like to see those MPs and MPPs having a way to get at the true wishes of their constituents to take into consideration when they make their vote in their respective houses, rather than just ignoring us and voting the way their caucus has told them its gonna be. At the very least we need to start having yes or no vote propositions on critical or contentious issues placed on our ballots at voting time the way the USA does. My opinion of course, but thank you for clarifying what I meant between web polling and web voting
Michael C
December 18, 2010 at 11:27 am
I understand where you are coming from Dan, but I still do not like the concept. The public will be manipulated. Ask the average CK resident whether he wants more police officers on the street, and I guarantee he will say yes, despite the fact that we have a police detachment of a 150% of the provincial average and a low crime rate.
Ask the average CK resident whether he wants his taxes to go up for yet more cops, and you may get a different answer.
Dan
December 18, 2010 at 10:44 am
I do think that u are right Rob, about the candidates in the next elections starting to use more web formats for discussion, debates, and input. Certainly it would be to their advantage in more ways than one. And that is too bad that some people are so disenfranchised about the system that they need to call names or engage in other undesirable behaviour. I guess that goes to show just how out of touch many of these politicians and administrators are tho, imho. I know its impossible to make everyone happy, but the shear number of unhappy people and the general distrust of politicians make it more than just an anomoly in my eyes. I can understand your need to moderate the forum to keep things civil and in good taste. I am certainly happy to see that you seem to only edit opinions where it seems necessary and appropriate. I think its great that u get actively involved in the conversation and debates as well, including the often sarcastic and/or humourous comments you make to some of the more “off the wall” posts. lol
I do, however, disagree with your opinion that web polling can not be a viable way to collect data. Many people do express their opinions to MPs and MPPs thru letters and phone calls, yet we the public never know how many of these people are doing such, and which side of the question they are on. I think more people would like to let their opinion be know on many issues, but to make a phone call or write a letter is just so much extra work in our already busy lives, and even to do so, feel their opinion falls on deaf ears. In this age of secure websites that carry our banking and credit card info, cellphone bills, hydro usage, Revenue Canada account etc., I find it hard to believe that an independent company or govt agency could not host secure websites that enable citizens to log in under their constituency category with a unique identifier to let their yes or no opinion on important issues be known to their MP or MPP. If the public knew the dirction the polling was heading and that their MP or MPP was going to consider the results in his vote rather than just voting party lines, we would probably have a lot more armchair critics taking the 60 seconds to log in and cast their vote. It can be done far quicker than a phone call or written letter, and the politicians would probably be far more respected if the public started seeing them voting the true wishes of the majority of theyre constituents. It would likely prevent truly unpopular bills from being passed into laws. Im sure there must be mechanisms possible to prevent the results from being “gamed” if the will to put such a system in place existed. But i expect way too much opposition from the politicians to do such a thing due to the erosion of their power it would create. I do expect that sometime in the future, public demand will make this come to fruition. Im just not sure if i/we will live to see it unfortunately.
laker
December 17, 2010 at 3:24 pm
I think we have a general concensus that we are at step 1
The big question is how do we get to and achieve the next
step.Certainly Dan and IK have some good points. How do we go about getting more programs ,more students etc,and who will spearhead this .I think a new stand alone college or university is a real long shot that would have little government support so it would make sense to expand our 2 local satellites.Let there be no doubt about the tremendous economic impact these students bring to a community and the many jobs associated with colleges and universities.But I know of two current members of council who were against St.Clair,s current expansion program so as the saying goes start it is time to walk the talk.
WhyMeLord
December 17, 2010 at 3:33 pm
I do agree with the “let’s get off the pot” mentality in many of these posts. But sadly there seems to be an implied assumption that any of this post-secondary education addition in Chatham-Kent will happen in Chatham. Why does everybody assume this? Why can’t it be somewhere else?
WhyMeLord
December 17, 2010 at 3:49 pm
I forgot to mention that Ivy League school Colgate University is in a small, small town Hamilton, New York. It’s about the same size as Wheatley in the middle of the hills south of Syracuse (ie. in the middle of nowhere). Why couldn’t any of our towns be candidates?
Jim in Wallaceburg
December 17, 2010 at 5:56 pm
Any one of our community-of-communities could host a main campus. My niece is on a hockey scholarship at Sacred Heart University in Fairfield, Connecticut. The area has a population of 50,000 and the university has an enrolment of 6,000. Fairfield is also ranked as the ninth “best place to live” in the entire United States.
MoneySense Magazine ranked Chatham-Kent the 111th best Canadian city to live in 2010 (out of 179). Having a local university was a factor in the MoneySense algorithm.
While I admire Mr. Hope’s optimism in asking student views “for what Chatham-Kent needs to be a world leader” – I’d be satisfied if we could move to middle of the pack and crept into the top third during the next four-years. I think the idea is worthy of discussion.
Zipper
December 17, 2010 at 9:56 pm
In speaking to a group of Chatham Kent youth yesterday, Major Randy Hope made two points clear. Chatham Kent is creating a story of success, and the youth of the community need to be part of that story
Understand your voice is needed, “Hope said,”I’m begging you for your views, insights, input, and feed back for what Chatham Kent needs to be a world leader.
WOW
What a concept…get a bunch of kids running cK.
cK is a 250 million dollar business, I am sure the experience from those kids will be beneficial to the taxpayers.
General Motors should go for that idea.
Rob
December 17, 2010 at 10:16 pm
Zip, the fact that you don’t get the importance of feedback from the youth is disappointing, but expected.
Chris Lozon
December 18, 2010 at 1:10 am
Rob, I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss Zip’s point, as edgy as it may be.
Mayor Hope needs to inspire and engage our youth by projecting confidence, focus and direction. To solicit direction and guidance from young teens on how to become a ‘world leader’ is a little concerning. The fact of the matter is we pay Mayor Hope and many others very well to meet the challenges of economic development and community growth. Should teens become more engaged and active in politics at all levels? Sure. But ultimately we owe it to them to provide the solutions when speaking in terms of global competitiveness.
Rob
December 18, 2010 at 1:54 am
The youth aren’t going to “become engaged and active in politics at all levels” if they’re not shown that their input is valued and respected.
I know you are very anti-Hope Chris, but don’t you think you’re mincing words here? Hope was letting the kids know he wanted and valued their opinions. He’s not asking them to run the Muni. I think you’re reaching to twist the intent so you can grab yet another opportunity to bash a guy you just plain don’t like. I, like Hope feel that it’s wise to consult all demographics. (In fact, in my own opinion, I feel the youth SHOULD be contributing their opinions, direction and guidance much more often.) Asking the youth for their opinion – to me – DOES demonstrate confidence on Hope’s part.
From the notes Ian submitted to me Hope laid out some very clear and direct opinions and came off quite confident in his intended plan of action. Ian felt there were a couple of articles worth of information to come from the school visit, and I believe he intends to publish more from that day on Monday.
Chris Lozon
December 18, 2010 at 2:12 am
Rob, just to be clear…I am not anti-Hope. I am simply pro-results and believe (for whatever that’s worth) we’ve lacked on this front under Mayor Hope’s watch. I just find that in the wake of recent announcements regarding wind turbine plants/jobs being located elsewhere, we are quickly jumping onto the next great elixir, grasping for straws and looking for something that might ‘stick’.
Incidently, my research staff have informed me that there is no University of Tillsonburg.
IK
December 18, 2010 at 10:38 am
Chris,
I understand your views and appreciate them. I think that Hope did what he needed to in that discussion with the youth to attempt to inspire them into involvement. He told them that CK needs their views to become a world leader, whether he was speaking 100% honestly or not. In a way he’s right, whether we take their views now or in five years, they are still important. Could you imagine if he had said “I’d love to hear what you have to say, but ultimately your voice doesn’t matter.” They would have walked out angry talking about another adult who doesn’t care what they say.
On your Tillsonburg does not have a university comment. Hope also spoke about those jobs. He took the optimistic route saying we have yet to miss out on the important jobs which are the maintenance jobs connected to the wind turbines. Manufacturing them he stated was a job with a life span of 5-7 years, while maintaining them would bring jobs for 10-20 years. Long term jobs was a goal he put forth in the presentation.
Don’t get me wrong here, I didn’t vote for Hope, but I don’t think nit picking is the way to go now. We should be questioning our administration, but we also need to move forward unified. To say Hope hasn’t shown results is fine, that’s why many voted for change. Now however, we can continue to pick on him and allow the lack of results to continue, or we can help him and hopefully garner results as a unified, engaged community.
Michael C
December 18, 2010 at 11:01 am
The question I guess for Mayor Hope is, does he want our help, ie, does he want to listen to citizen input?
That is not the impression I get, but I would love to be proven wrong.
IK
December 18, 2010 at 12:48 pm
Well, and that’s a valid question Michael. Asking for input is step one, utlizing the input after you get it is the next step. We’ll see I guess.
IK
December 17, 2010 at 11:30 pm
Those kids will be taxpayers in a few years, and they will be the ones left to run Chatham-Kent when Hope, yourself, and I are all gone. Looking to the future is something that should have been done before, and is more important now than ever.
Michael C
December 18, 2010 at 8:01 am
Very interesting discussion. CKDP is proving its worth with every comment.
On the Higher Education front I would say that it is probably easier to expand an existing facility into an area of expertise where business sees a need. So I am thinking what we are most likely to see is an expansion of the Ridgetown campus into high tek related to agriculture or veterinary practice. A new facility related to research into wind or solar power generation, or something in the health care field.
I think RIM is a perfect example of what can happen. A brilliant man driving an idea, and its effect upon the local economy.